Do we like working from home?

Internet DNA Podcast

The pros and cons of working from your bedroom; from someone used to getting the train every day to someone used to freelancing at home. Can our mental health, creativity and new business engagement survive it, are some in a honeymoon period of cozy slippers and how do businesses manage their culture from afar. Will the remote manager be a different fish from the in person plaice? And finally how do you run a successful zoom workshop, apparently it involves roses!

Transcription

(this transcription is written by robots… so don’t be surprised!)

Hello, welcome to this week's episode of Instinet DNA with me, Abi. And me Dan. ThIs week, we're going to talk about what we're all doing, which is working from home and looking at it from different sides. I'd also like to touch on zoom etiquette and how to hold design workshops, virtually, so where should we start?

 It's a bit shit isn't it really?

 Right? Why is it?

 Because I think when it started, you could say isn't this all what we all wanted. I don't think it's the working from home. That's a bit, shit, to be honest, but it compounds just the general, not seeing people, you know, Probably didn't realize how many people you saw when you went to work every day.

People I saw at the station, people I saw on the train people, I saw or in the office. People I'd go in and have a drink with or meeting with after work. All of those people that you meet and suddenly you just don't see anyone. During the working week and that's the bit I'm finding.  Difficult.

So

 it's not the work itself. Do you find that easier to do at home

 I think I'm probably more productive and actually, you know, our company has shown through stats. We all being more productive working from home, which seems counter-intuitive. But that's just because a lot of time at work is spent looking busy. Whereas when you're working from home, you can either be busy or you're not busy.

I mean, I don't get that luxury of just look busy, but you get more time to do what you need to do. There's more meetings, but they tend to be shorter, but you don't have meetings that go on over an hour. Most of the meetings are 15 minutes because it's getting in the way of the rest of your work in many ways.

 Yes. The reason I left working for a business and went freelance was because I couldn't stand the meetings anymore. I've always felt that meetings are overused, external meetings with clients. Generally. Good. But internal meetings. I just felt like my time was being eaten away and I'd never get it back.

So that's actually why I left. And I love the fact zoom, you know, the cheapest zoom, it stops at 40 minutes, which is a perfect time for a meeting. I think all meeting software should cut you off when time to go and do some work. It's the looking busy thing is quite interesting, isn't it? Because I think people that are hard workers, they will work harder at home.

That's just their nature. Whereas the people that were looking busy at work just don't even have to look busy anymore. So they won't work harder. They'll just go and have a nice time, which to be honest, if you're that sort of person pretending to do something that you're not doing is ridiculous. Anyway.

 They are  probably more busy in an odd way because you call them, justify your job by looking busy, you actually have to do something. Otherwise people will go, what the fuck are you doing? Whereas if you're in an office, that question doesn't come up so much because you're sat at your desk all day, you must be doing something.

 What worries me as well as that, some businesses are using this as an excuse to cull the people that. They're carrying all businesses, carry people. It's human nature that we all work in different ways.

 You're not doing the job you were assigned. You should expect that the company might take action about that. If you are doing the job that you've been assigned to the best of your ability, I think companies absolutely should do whatever they can to keep you there and help you develop into a better person.

 I don't think it's necessarily about can't be bothered yes. In some cases. But I think it's more the fact that some people are just more productive than others.

 Oh, absolutely. Some people are productive in different ways.

 You are giving to them most of your life. Yes. And in return they should look after it.

 Or in return, they give you money for you to look after yourself. That's the deal with a company it's not a club or some sort of social scene.

 Is it's the social side of the you're missing. So it is a social thing.

 Yes but that’s a subsidiary thing of what, but the primary contract, when you look at your contract, it's very clear you're working these hours. You're expected to do these roles and this is what we will pay you to do them. Now, if you're not doing them, you're kind of reneging on that contract in the first place.

Some people are slow and steady and some people have a certain type  of knowledge. I have sparks of ideas or they other one that can close a deal. And that's the area though. That's going to be lacking the creativity, the sparking ideas and getting new business in because if you're not rubbing shoulders with people.

 Which, uh, you're not, you have to bump elbows. How are you going to get the relationship that a lot of businesses need to bring in the new work? That is a main area of why people need to go back to work. And I wonder if it would start to get dull, that productivity is short-lived and how do we keep up innovation?

Do you think companies are going to want to get people back to it so that they can. Keep a hand on corporate culture. I mean, why would you work at Google if you were working from home? Because isn't it all about being part of Google?

 Corporate culture is a very nebulous thing. People want to work for Google because. They're one of the leading technology companies. It doesn't really matter whether they have pong in the breakout area or not what is driving those people is they're working with people who are brilliant at what they do.

 Yes. But also if you're spending a lot of time at work, it's a really nice environment to be in.  You don't think that's important.

 I  think that  most companies don't do it.

 It must be very odd. Starting new jobs, your criteria of choosing a job. If you're working mainly from home are going to enormously change from what they were before.

 Yeah. When we ran a company, it was an unspoken culture of work hard play hard, but we were quite a small company. And so it was a very easy culture to maintain. Once you get to being a big corporate, it's very, very difficult to actually it takes a lot of energy to drive a culture. And I think that's why great company leaders are great because they have to maintain that energy throughout the company.

 So maintaining the, what we are, this is a bit like the storytelling again, but the maintaining the culture that we want our company to have is going to really shift. When I talked about, we want things to change and come back better. That's what's going to shift your ability to motivate and entice people to be part of that culture is going to massively change. And those people, the CEOs that were good at doing it face to face.

It's going to be a different skillset. And this is maybe where the upskilling has come from. It's going to be a different skillset of the type of leader that can do it virtually or remotely or. Via teleworking. And so not only is the criteria of why we would go and work at a company going to change and therefore our CV's and where we want to be.

Also the people running, it are going to change because they're going to need to be able to be leaders in a different format.

 In many ways. I think it's oddly easier to maintain that culture outside the office when you're not confronted with the reality of it's an office. There's a lot of stuff that goes on in trying to maintain a company culture.

One of the companies I really admire is the Mercedes formula one team, just because I think that. Toto Wolf is a phenomenal leader of people. It's all very well to say we have a no blame culture. It's very, very difficult to actually implement that. As soon as you add any element of fear or uncertainty into a company.

It leads naturally into people turtling down. And I think that's where a company culture is really important. I don't think it's that important to be funky or cool, or have pong in your breakout area. I think it's a belief that the people running the company actively give a shit about you.

 Do you think that we are upskilling by learning these new ways of teleworking and telecommunication?

 I think that's so easy. So little bits, like somebody write on their CV, they know how to use word. It's almost like writing. I know how to breathe. Just see what I mean.

 We talked about storytelling and relationships. How are we going to start relationships? Just with zoom. I've worked from home for the last three and a half years and I absolutely love it.

But then I have a very busy, you know, young children. I love the quietness and that I think is the difference of my experience in your experience in that you get quietness outside of work. And you're a very gregarious social person. So you need a bit more hubbub in your work. Whereas I get so much hubbub outside.

I love that I can put my slippers on and just focus.

 Yeah. and I think I require people just spark off and it can be quite isolated and you can zoom me, but you still don't get that personal connection with people.

 I loved your buddy idea. Actually it almost like speed dating. Isn't it being put next to someone that you wouldn't normally talk to and have to talk to them or not next to them being given access to talk to them for 10 minutes.

 Buddy Scheme. I enjoy a beer every Thursday with just a random person in my company.

 You're just told right today. You're having a beer with John from,

 yeah. You're not meeting them,

 but you're video calling them. Yeah, that's really cool because you would never have met John. If you'd been going to the office, because naturally you'd just hang out with the people that either in your teams,

 The five people that you hang out with.

 So the buddy schemes brilliant. And that is how you can spark ideas.

 And it's also interesting to get to know people cause you know, even in an office, you, a lot of what you know about people is what they do in that company. But because you're specifically not allowed to talk about work, it's quite. I mean, they haven't all been interesting,

 Have you been boring them too much with your model making and the different coloured earth?

 I don't bring that up was very quiet on that front publicly. I think because I derive a huge amount of joy out of it. And I'm very happy with what I do.

 You think people are going to pigeonhole you.

 Yeah, you got a lot of old air fix type comments and it's like, yeah, whatever. I suppose if you're interested in stones and people just see it as rocks or stamps, for example,

 I was going to say stamps when I see my husband's face light up, when he thinks that he might be able to get his coin or stamp book out and show me for a moment before he realizes that I'm not going to be interested.

 No, but that's the thing about those types of. Hobbies, especially those sort of oldie, worldly, hobbies, like stamp collecting, you know, my children probably would just go what the fuck as a stamp.

 Well, yeah, stamps and coins and the not too distant future. You're going to be, what's a coin. I mean, what's a coin collector and a stamp collector,

 a stamp collector is called a philatelist

 or a Numismatist

 But  I used to collect stones when I was small, interesting stones, but you know, basically different types of rock.

 Don't all children collect stones.

 Ah. But I collected them in a very specific way. So it wasn't just a, Oh, here's a stone. It was a very organized collection of types of stones you saw in different parts of the world.

And half the fun of it much like half the fun of modelling and I'm sure was same with stamp collecting and coins. It's all the associated interest around it rather than the actual thing itself.

 My husband, who is in to stamp, collecting and coin collecting. He still does collect stones. I'm always having to hide them in drawers and cupboards and things.

Cause they're, to me, they just looked rather dirty and old, but he's found a shark's tooth in our garden and lots of amazing, very old bits of broken things, which is what they are to me. But to him, they're fascinating as you say. So I think you've got a certain mind cause it's interesting that he still does.

He loves collecting and bottles and things. And the coins and the stamps and the same with you with collecting stones. And now the interest of the model making. I bet you and my husband are much better at general knowledge than me. And I think it's that type of brain a collector has that you collect. So you're collecting knowledge as well.

 Yeah. So one of the things that I'm doing at the moment in work is what we call inter-departmental workshops. So inviting sales to just come and tell us what they need to be able to do, or what are their pain points. And I do it with every department. I encourage them to also do it with others. So just because it's not a department you deal with, it might be that you can help them.

I've found it's really interesting to understand how other. Parts of the company think because you can get very locked into your thinking.

 I wonder though, a lot of businesses have closed down because people have just said, I love working from home. I love that I can put the washing on and let the dog out and do some exercise.

And I don't have to sit on the train and people are really enjoying it

 And there are some brilliant bits about it. The actual working from home. No problem at all.

 It's funny, isn't it? Because you would always think, Oh, people would be less productive at home. But I think as time goes on, people are going to lose motivation and actually the productivity will go down.

I don't think it's a sustainable thing. Working from home. People will begin to go. Well,

 I think also companies realize that as well, which is there's only a certain amount of energy that you can derive from people. Once you start not changing up their environment enough.

 Sure. I think the best of both worlds is the flexi isn't it, which is what I do.

I worked with that. I don't have to have a studio, but I do have to have a studio because personally I need that sometimes to go and be with the other people and to be in a different space. That is the Holy grail. Isn't it? I think what COVID has given us is the fact that. It's now not frowned upon to work at home. So people will be able to do that flexi much better.

 I really enjoy the way it's being suggested to me is that I go in on a Tuesday and a Thursday and I go in for 11. And then I leave at seven, which is kind of perfect. It will be quite nice. But in this period where I can't go to the office, it's starting to wear a little bit.

It's not the working, it's the everything else. If it was just, life is normal, but you're working from home. I don't think I'd have an issue.

 So moving on to zoom, other software is available. What's your pet hates and likes on zoom meetings.

 One of the things that's been really interesting to me is the use of video.

And, that, when we first started, everybody had their video on, then it sort of went into nobody had their video on, and now it's going back into a more, some people have their video on and some people don't. And I think that's really been quite interesting to see. I mean, actually I thought this about real meetings, not just two meetings, but I think zoom meetings make it even more important is.

 That you really need a referee on meetings. Who's not a part of the meeting really, but just ensures that everybody gets a chat, but otherwise that shouty man just tends to get whatever he wants when it's all on zoom. I think it needs to be much more structured and it needs to be a now, what do you think?

And now what do you think? And actually go around the room. So many of my meetings with zoom, I might as well, just not, I've had half the people in there. Because it just don't contribute at all. And so it's very important that you actually go and ask every person, especially towards the end of the meeting.

What do you feel? What do you feel?

 Are you still there? Well, this is why I wanted to talk about design workshops on zoom. I don't like it when people turn their screens off, I find it a bit disconcerting. You don't know where to look when you're talking to someone and. Being able to look at someone when you're talking to them really helps me to focus and formulate what it is I'm going to say.

But with design workshops, I structure it much more. I have an agenda. I share my screen, but I wonder whether it's better for people to see me talking or whether it's better to have more visual aids. So a slide show, for example, the other thing I find that although I like people to. See me and me see them.

I'm constantly writing because it's a design workshop and therefore I'm looking down, but they can't see what I'm writing. So again, it's not perfect. And I'm looking for a more perfect way of doing it.

 My brother used to always talk about a thing called the Rose slide and the  idea of the Rose slide is you just put a picture of a Rose every so often throughout your presentation.

And the reason why  you do that is it because it forces you to stop and then you would ask for feedback and then you would carry on because it's very easy in a presentation. You know what you want to say on each slide? And what that can do is lead into a sort of railroading position where you'll not allowing people to leave the track that you created. And so I quite liked the  idea of this rose slide just as a concept.  Really. It could just be a blank page where you go, is everybody with us is, that anyone got anything to say about that? Is there anything I need to cover again? Is there anything that anybody missed or didn't understand.

  Its a really good idea because you lose people's concentration much quicker on a zoom call.

 Maybe we just have a klaxon. Every four one,

 I do have that. And so unprofessional, the dog comes and barks

 and that's the other thing, which is funny about zoom meetings is people wandering in and out of rooms, not the people that you're talking to, but just in the background, I think there's been a big change. Hasn't there to people having fake backgrounds. So you don't see someone wandering across the back with the  washing.

 Yeah. But it's become much more acceptable. To have a real life, as it were to say, you have children say you are doing a domestic thing and before you would almost pretend that your life only existed for this meeting for this client, even talking about the fact that your child is in another room doing their homework and they need some help.

It's just not something you did, but now it's absolutely fine to say I've got to go the school run or I'm so sorry. That's my dog. Or anything like that. And I think that's really good. We all have the same domestic logistics and just being accommodating of that is a really good step forward.

 Makes everybody more human. I think that that's very important, but being a creative, it's probably a lot more okay. Than if your. A lawyer. Do you see what I mean? I think it lacks a certain form of professionalism. If you're trying to have a very serious meeting about something and you've got people tearing around in the background, whacking each other with jelly hammers, I'm using it extreme example to say there is a line there.

Between. We're all faceless suits to just doing our job and. We live in chaos and this is my house somewhere in there is obviously a line of acceptability and that varies from job to job that line for a lawyer. Is a very different line than for an artist.

 Yes. I don't like seeing, newsreaders sitting in their house to me that doesn't make the news feel professional and trustworthy. It feels all a bit too amateur.

 I really think we do need to start having some more office time. It's been long enough now. And I think if you were already working for home, when you were already freelance, it's probably not as big a change. As it was for people who were going in on a train every morning, Monday to Friday

 As a freelancer, my working life stayed very much the same.  So I didn't notice the impact as much as, for example, you that commute. But people also say, Oh, we don't want it to come back the same. We want it must change a crisis. Is an opportunity riding a dangerous wave. How do we want it to come back different? Is it the flexibility? Is it honest?

 It's all of those things.

And I think for a lot of women it's been massively empowering because all these companies who are like, Oh no, you can't work for home. What difference does it make? Yeah. Why women? Because I think more women need flexi time, especially they've got cared for companies to be flexible about their lives in some sort of Nordic Scandi way.

Keeping my own hours. I work in the morning. Not that productive in the afternoon, but then I'll work at night

 People have told me that it would like to live in Europe and have the siesta people that get the after lunch lull, they say, it's fantastic. They can have a power nap they're allowed to, and they are so much more productive.

But I just want to come back to you saying it's better for women. What I hope that this will do is. Free up there's men that said, Oh, I don't have the time. Oh, I can't do this. Oh, I can't do that. They are now at home in the same position as the woman who might've been flexi working and they can, and so they should be taking on more domestic chores  and becoming this equal that they people say that we are equal becoming more equal.

 So not only in men are around the house more often and therefore can be more helpful. Good luck with that. And then also that a lot of jobs that were unobtainable because you couldn't go into London because you had to be back by four o'clock or five o'clock suddenly become a possible job. You can do that now.

 So the job market is opened up. Now what's left of the job market.

 That's the worrying thing. Well, I'm hoping. Is that all these brilliant creative minds that suddenly sadly are going to find, they've got to find a new job. They're going to be entrepreneurial and set up new small businesses and do really well and employ me to them.

Yes. And then that would be fantastic. My worry is, is that as the whole economy contracts, there's less money being spent. The money earned by the people in hospitality is spent elsewhere. You know, so you're not just losing the hospitality business. You're losing all their spending power as well.

And they spend on designers and sign writers and. We'll see, maybe my doom and gloom is just because I'm locked in this house and maybe it will be fantastic and everyone will live in a new paradigm.

 And make jam locally and be really happy and content.

 Maybe what people realize is we don't need all, a lot of this nonsense.

 As you've just said the nonsense is what makes the money, v which makes the world go round.

 Yes, it's true. But I think that that money could be spent differently. You know, I tend

 I dont think you can be the person to say, what is nonsense and what is not nonsense to spend your money on. So no I disagree, we better go there.

 Before I upset everybody!

 Yep. I'm interested in more tips and techniques and interest in how to improve workshops on zoom. So I'm working towards that and I hope that people can give me some good ideas on it.

 Excellent.

 And we'll speak next week. I would like to speak about this new clothing that repels bugs that's being made in Japan. When I say bugs, I mean, viruses unseen. I don't mean lady bird.

 Right. Okay. Cause I was thinking right. Really?

 I think it's fascinating. And actually it was nothing to do with COVID but obviously even more important.

 Yes. Okay. Cause I'd like to talk about energy. And where, where we should be getting it from.

 Good. We've have exciting things lined up then.

Okay. Bye. Bye.

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Dan & Abi work, talk & dream in tech. If you would like to discuss any speaking opportunity contact us.